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	<title>Comments on: Gatekeepers of Literary Greatness</title>
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	<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2010/12/gatekeepers-of-literary-greatness/</link>
	<description>Where was it one first heard of the truth?</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2010/12/gatekeepers-of-literary-greatness/comment-page-1/#comment-873</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 04:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=3339#comment-873</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[agreed about him hammering points home. lewis (who i&#039;m not as big a fan of) described chesterton&#039;s rhetorical moves as the flashes of a sword...of a man who is fighting for his life. chesterton does have an amazing ability to move ideas (even ponderous ones) around with slicing, witty remarks. i think the comparison to a man fighting for his life is appropriate. there&#039;s a sort of desperation in his pacing. there are stories (apocryphal i&#039;m sure...probably originated with gb shaw) about chesterton dictating an essay while writing another by hand. it wouldn&#039;t surprise me though. even if you hate his ideas, you have to admire his ability to write and speak.

have you read zizek on chesterton? there&#039;s an interesting essay here: http://www.lacan.com/zizhegche.htm

i don&#039;t know hegel (or zizek to be honest) very well, so a good bit of that essay goes over my head. but from what i can understand, zizek has some interesting takes on chesterton.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>agreed about him hammering points home. lewis (who i&#8217;m not as big a fan of) described chesterton&#8217;s rhetorical moves as the flashes of a sword&#8230;of a man who is fighting for his life. chesterton does have an amazing ability to move ideas (even ponderous ones) around with slicing, witty remarks. i think the comparison to a man fighting for his life is appropriate. there&#8217;s a sort of desperation in his pacing. there are stories (apocryphal i&#8217;m sure&#8230;probably originated with gb shaw) about chesterton dictating an essay while writing another by hand. it wouldn&#8217;t surprise me though. even if you hate his ideas, you have to admire his ability to write and speak.</p>
<p>have you read zizek on chesterton? there&#8217;s an interesting essay here: <a href="http://www.lacan.com/zizhegche.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.lacan.com/zizhegche.htm</a></p>
<p>i don&#8217;t know hegel (or zizek to be honest) very well, so a good bit of that essay goes over my head. but from what i can understand, zizek has some interesting takes on chesterton.</p>
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		<title>By: ChristopherPhelps</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2010/12/gatekeepers-of-literary-greatness/comment-page-1/#comment-872</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ChristopherPhelps]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 04:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=3339#comment-872</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A rhetorical satori, that Chesterton. Thanks for the delicious quote, Micah! I read Orthodoxy once, on a plane. I remember reacting physically, both good and bad. (He can be maddening, hammering a point home... but when you&#039;re in agreement, you want to join in with his fist pump! Haha.)

To be a critic (nevermind Critic) isn&#039;t intrinsically as bad as he makes it sound -- to switch sides for a moment -- but he&#039;s put his finger on the danger. To criticize is to feign yourself more sophisticated than what you criticize. I can describe the workings of a pendulum (elliptic integrals, if you make me) because I am more sophisticated than a pendulum. But a poem is more than a pendulum (or, more aptly, than a metronome). It&#039;s amazing how soon Critics seem to forget they&#039;re just people with opinions, and that poetry is a form of awareness on the level of other people with opinions, so to criticize it properly would seem to require being everyone and having all opinions. Whereas, more commonly, a Critic peeps through his or her keyhole, faulting the line of sight: &quot;Too discursive&quot; or &quot;Not autobiographical enough&quot; or &quot;Too many abstractions.&quot; So much for defending criticism! I&#039;d like a world where critics did nothing but clear avenues and clarify intersections.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A rhetorical satori, that Chesterton. Thanks for the delicious quote, Micah! I read Orthodoxy once, on a plane. I remember reacting physically, both good and bad. (He can be maddening, hammering a point home&#8230; but when you&#8217;re in agreement, you want to join in with his fist pump! Haha.)</p>
<p>To be a critic (nevermind Critic) isn&#8217;t intrinsically as bad as he makes it sound &#8212; to switch sides for a moment &#8212; but he&#8217;s put his finger on the danger. To criticize is to feign yourself more sophisticated than what you criticize. I can describe the workings of a pendulum (elliptic integrals, if you make me) because I am more sophisticated than a pendulum. But a poem is more than a pendulum (or, more aptly, than a metronome). It&#8217;s amazing how soon Critics seem to forget they&#8217;re just people with opinions, and that poetry is a form of awareness on the level of other people with opinions, so to criticize it properly would seem to require being everyone and having all opinions. Whereas, more commonly, a Critic peeps through his or her keyhole, faulting the line of sight: &#8220;Too discursive&#8221; or &#8220;Not autobiographical enough&#8221; or &#8220;Too many abstractions.&#8221; So much for defending criticism! I&#8217;d like a world where critics did nothing but clear avenues and clarify intersections.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2010/12/gatekeepers-of-literary-greatness/comment-page-1/#comment-871</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 03:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=3339#comment-871</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[by the way, chris--i think it&#039;s perfectly on topic!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>by the way, chris&#8211;i think it&#8217;s perfectly on topic!</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2010/12/gatekeepers-of-literary-greatness/comment-page-1/#comment-870</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 03:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=3339#comment-870</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ah yes chesterton...i was actually just rereading (or relistening again, courtesy of librivox) orthodoxy. that part of the book is one of my favorite in chesterton....

Everywhere we see that men do not go mad by dreaming.  Critics are much madder than poets. Homer is complete and calm enough; it is his critics who tear him into extravagant tatters.  Shakespeare is quite himself; it is only some of his critics who have discovered that he was somebody else. And though St. John the Evangelist saw many strange monsters in his vision, he saw no creature so wild as one of his own commentators.  The general fact is simple.  Poetry is sane because it floats easily in an infinite sea; reason seeks to cross the infinite sea, and so make it finite.  The result is mental exhaustion, like the physical exhaustion of Mr. Holbein.  To accept everything is an exercise, to understand everything a strain.  The poet only desires exaltation and expansion, a world to stretch himself in. The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens.  It is the logician who seeks to get the heavens into his head.  And it is his head that splits.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ah yes chesterton&#8230;i was actually just rereading (or relistening again, courtesy of librivox) orthodoxy. that part of the book is one of my favorite in chesterton&#8230;.</p>
<p>Everywhere we see that men do not go mad by dreaming.  Critics are much madder than poets. Homer is complete and calm enough; it is his critics who tear him into extravagant tatters.  Shakespeare is quite himself; it is only some of his critics who have discovered that he was somebody else. And though St. John the Evangelist saw many strange monsters in his vision, he saw no creature so wild as one of his own commentators.  The general fact is simple.  Poetry is sane because it floats easily in an infinite sea; reason seeks to cross the infinite sea, and so make it finite.  The result is mental exhaustion, like the physical exhaustion of Mr. Holbein.  To accept everything is an exercise, to understand everything a strain.  The poet only desires exaltation and expansion, a world to stretch himself in. The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens.  It is the logician who seeks to get the heavens into his head.  And it is his head that splits.</p>
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		<title>By: ChristopherPhelps</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2010/12/gatekeepers-of-literary-greatness/comment-page-1/#comment-869</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ChristopherPhelps]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 03:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=3339#comment-869</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joe, I love the Kafka quote. Thank you for that. And your anecdote about the self-defeat of (at least bureaucratic) systems is keen.

It&#039;s probably no coincidence, either, that Cantor and Godel made seminal contributions to mathematics and logic, then (swiftly and slowly, respectively) went mad. I think it was Chesterton who pointed out how the analytical mind goes wrong sooner than the poetic. A reason why, or just a phenomenon: whereas social and political systems constrict, in mathematics it can feel opposite; too wide open. Cantor again: &quot;The essence of mathematics is freedom.&quot; Procrustean but pretty accurate up in the theory seats. Godel is still a hero of mine. In making logic capable of describing itself (somewhat analogous to crafting a mirror fine enough to reflect both the world and its own reflection of it -- an infinite mise en abyme he found a way to circle back on itself), Godel found the soft spots: the modesties and misgivings. The limitations (of consistency and completeness) self-confessed in that mirror. I wish literary camps and schools could find that sort of knack, to self-critique without a war having to be brought. I&#039;m sure they have, and do. But the interfactional sniping -- in the vituperative reviews and scab-biting that goes on in the republic of letters -- is what shows more distinctly in the Comment section of Poetry, et al.

Sorry this ramble has been only marginally on-topic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, I love the Kafka quote. Thank you for that. And your anecdote about the self-defeat of (at least bureaucratic) systems is keen.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s probably no coincidence, either, that Cantor and Godel made seminal contributions to mathematics and logic, then (swiftly and slowly, respectively) went mad. I think it was Chesterton who pointed out how the analytical mind goes wrong sooner than the poetic. A reason why, or just a phenomenon: whereas social and political systems constrict, in mathematics it can feel opposite; too wide open. Cantor again: &#8220;The essence of mathematics is freedom.&#8221; Procrustean but pretty accurate up in the theory seats. Godel is still a hero of mine. In making logic capable of describing itself (somewhat analogous to crafting a mirror fine enough to reflect both the world and its own reflection of it &#8212; an infinite mise en abyme he found a way to circle back on itself), Godel found the soft spots: the modesties and misgivings. The limitations (of consistency and completeness) self-confessed in that mirror. I wish literary camps and schools could find that sort of knack, to self-critique without a war having to be brought. I&#8217;m sure they have, and do. But the interfactional sniping &#8212; in the vituperative reviews and scab-biting that goes on in the republic of letters &#8212; is what shows more distinctly in the Comment section of Poetry, et al.</p>
<p>Sorry this ramble has been only marginally on-topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2010/12/gatekeepers-of-literary-greatness/comment-page-1/#comment-868</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 22:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=3339#comment-868</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[did i miss any? i think i caught almost all of them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>did i miss any? i think i caught almost all of them.</p>
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		<title>By: joe weil</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2010/12/gatekeepers-of-literary-greatness/comment-page-1/#comment-867</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[joe weil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 21:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=3339#comment-867</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank You. Your correctives are useful, and I made some movement towards them myself in other sections of these lecture  notes not posted. One of my favorite quotes on the recalcitrance of systems, especially in terms of their absurdity is a parable by Kafka: &quot;The crows maintain that a single crow could destroy the heavens; doubtless this is so, but it proves nothing against the heavens, for the heavens signify simply: the impossibility of crows.&quot; To give you a concrete example of systemic idiocy: I was running an international poetry reading, poems in 20 languages, but I made the mistake of running it in the English faculty conference room. All the confirmed atheists suddenly behaved as if I had trespassed on holy ground, though no one was using it at that hour, and they had booked my class to meet in that room earlier in the day. They claimed our reading had disrupted 4 conferences, which was odd because we only had two readings. Actually the class of mine they had assigned to that room had interrupted four conference, not the reading, but when I proved this to them, they were upset at being mistaken.I was thrown out of that space. I had the student I was training to host readings seek out another room. My chair tried to help him book the Graduate student organization&#039;s lounge. She was successful, but on my host in training asking if the room was available on December 10 at six oclock, was told it was booked. Here&#039;s the comedy and insanity of it: it was booked by my chair, for us! Because the functionary did not connect the student to the event or the authority of the chair, he locked us out of the event which was reserved for us. No one will give us the key because &quot;We&quot; have reserved the room and &quot;We are not able to run the reading because &quot;We&quot; have reserved the room. That is the best  example of systemic madness I have experienced yet. By the way, forgive the typos. Micah lifted these from notes I posted. My fault.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank You. Your correctives are useful, and I made some movement towards them myself in other sections of these lecture  notes not posted. One of my favorite quotes on the recalcitrance of systems, especially in terms of their absurdity is a parable by Kafka: &#8220;The crows maintain that a single crow could destroy the heavens; doubtless this is so, but it proves nothing against the heavens, for the heavens signify simply: the impossibility of crows.&#8221; To give you a concrete example of systemic idiocy: I was running an international poetry reading, poems in 20 languages, but I made the mistake of running it in the English faculty conference room. All the confirmed atheists suddenly behaved as if I had trespassed on holy ground, though no one was using it at that hour, and they had booked my class to meet in that room earlier in the day. They claimed our reading had disrupted 4 conferences, which was odd because we only had two readings. Actually the class of mine they had assigned to that room had interrupted four conference, not the reading, but when I proved this to them, they were upset at being mistaken.I was thrown out of that space. I had the student I was training to host readings seek out another room. My chair tried to help him book the Graduate student organization&#8217;s lounge. She was successful, but on my host in training asking if the room was available on December 10 at six oclock, was told it was booked. Here&#8217;s the comedy and insanity of it: it was booked by my chair, for us! Because the functionary did not connect the student to the event or the authority of the chair, he locked us out of the event which was reserved for us. No one will give us the key because &#8220;We&#8221; have reserved the room and &#8220;We are not able to run the reading because &#8220;We&#8221; have reserved the room. That is the best  example of systemic madness I have experienced yet. By the way, forgive the typos. Micah lifted these from notes I posted. My fault.</p>
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		<title>By: ChristopherPhelps</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2010/12/gatekeepers-of-literary-greatness/comment-page-1/#comment-865</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ChristopherPhelps]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 17:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=3339#comment-865</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really enjoyed this. May I quibble with something, in the interest of shoring up the overall sweep? You say, unpacking Derrida:

Claim: &quot;There can be no errors in perception if all perception is misperception, only errors in methodology.&quot;

It is consistent to say, &quot;not by force of truth but by force of belief,&quot; but not, &quot;not by force of any truth but this,&quot; unless we then take that latter statement as the sole exception to its own mandate. Many in positions of power do (force) exactly that.

Let me say it another way. The claim above comes out as a Wittgensteinian meta-truth: gesturable toward as placeheld in logical space, but not &quot;perceivable&quot; unless that word is allowed to shift its meaning. Suppose we perceive it to be true that all perception is misperception. Then we&#039;ve misperceived it, which, plugging back into the statement, means we&#039;ve perceived it. It&#039;s a variant of the Liar paradox.

I&#039;m not trying to be a gadfly here. But this is one of my favorite conundra, and there are rigorous ways around it.

To the larger point that power resists systems (logical systems, for example) in order to maintain itself: this idea is endlessly fruitful. Theological arguments address it. God can&#039;t make a rock too heavy to lift because that would entail giving up his omnipotence, one party claims. Another says that&#039;s the point exactly: a choice to self-limit is one of the most powerful a being can make. Logicians like the idea that logic is the softest force but the strongest, but even they allow various ways out of the Chinese finger cuffs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed this. May I quibble with something, in the interest of shoring up the overall sweep? You say, unpacking Derrida:</p>
<p>Claim: &#8220;There can be no errors in perception if all perception is misperception, only errors in methodology.&#8221;</p>
<p>It is consistent to say, &#8220;not by force of truth but by force of belief,&#8221; but not, &#8220;not by force of any truth but this,&#8221; unless we then take that latter statement as the sole exception to its own mandate. Many in positions of power do (force) exactly that.</p>
<p>Let me say it another way. The claim above comes out as a Wittgensteinian meta-truth: gesturable toward as placeheld in logical space, but not &#8220;perceivable&#8221; unless that word is allowed to shift its meaning. Suppose we perceive it to be true that all perception is misperception. Then we&#8217;ve misperceived it, which, plugging back into the statement, means we&#8217;ve perceived it. It&#8217;s a variant of the Liar paradox.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not trying to be a gadfly here. But this is one of my favorite conundra, and there are rigorous ways around it.</p>
<p>To the larger point that power resists systems (logical systems, for example) in order to maintain itself: this idea is endlessly fruitful. Theological arguments address it. God can&#8217;t make a rock too heavy to lift because that would entail giving up his omnipotence, one party claims. Another says that&#8217;s the point exactly: a choice to self-limit is one of the most powerful a being can make. Logicians like the idea that logic is the softest force but the strongest, but even they allow various ways out of the Chinese finger cuffs.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Rixon via Facebook</title>
		<link>https://thethepoetry.com/2010/12/gatekeepers-of-literary-greatness/comment-page-1/#comment-866</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Rixon via Facebook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Dec 2010 17:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://thethepoetry.com/?p=3339#comment-866</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Only poets know how many poems end up as pies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only poets know how many poems end up as pies.</p>
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